";s:4:"text";s:29848:"Furthermore, standardization of equipment reduces costs upon the logistical system. Step 2: Read the markings You could find either the USMC or USN MK2 marking on the knife. Sweeping grind. Pilot's Survival Knife. To put things in context, it is estimated that there have been, at least, 200 different Ka-bar knife stamps in use since the late 1890s. The Air Force Survival Knife is an excellent knife. COStraight lineOLEAN, N.Y, and USA.1912 1920UNION CUTLERY CO.Straight lineOLEAN, N. Y1912 1930UNIONRound rectangular boxNil1914 1926KEENWELL CUT COStraight lineOLEAN, N. Y1920 1930KEENWELL CUT COStraight lineOLEAN, N.Y; Ka-Bar; Model number1928 1932KA-BARStraight lineUSA`1930 1940OLCUTStraight lineStainless Steel; or UNION CUT CO. & OLEAN, N. Y1935 1945KabarStraight lineUnfilled star1950 1970. companies to design the Para knife. Well I got my first one from and Army Helicopter pilot in Germany 1963. The tang stamp on this knife is post Government contract era. True, those origins are shrouded in a lot of poor occurrences but the knives stayed on to mark those eras and the good work of manufacturers in, Read More How to Tell the Age of a Marbles Knife by Yourself (5 Methods)Continue, The Case Kodiak is one of the most interesting exports from the company and continues to command a high price today. the markings are all the same and in the same place as the originals. by Colonel666 Wed May 29, 2013 10:48 pm, Post Marble produced several thousand knives for field testing and delivered them to the U.S. Air Force between 1957-1959. This prototype is date 5/13/1954. I like that, but cannot figure out what type of knife that may be. The OP had such and an easy question, one would think. Show me your knife, and I'll tell you who you are. This initial fabrication met the basic outlined requirements what the Navy wanted, with the approval of the drawing, we then begin to see the application of the applied property marks which are simply USN on the ricasso. The knife went through a couple of different vendors over its life cycle. If you have some method to receive photos, let me know and Ill forward the photos. 5679 L36: WW II Army Air Corps knife. oldjunkagain. You can jump to the following sections if youre in a hurry, but I would advise that you dont skip this part. Force survival kit knife. Listed here we will discuss a few items that
Enjoy! Engineers. The sharpened clip point on the blade allows the pilot to punch a hole in the aluminum then use the knife spine as a hasty saw to cut through the aircraft skin during an aircraft egress situation. SKIP. Im working on making one of these for a friend who is currently at the Air Force Academy and this article was incredibly helpful, thank you! camillus knife identification. Theyre not like the other vintage war knives Ive dated because theyre not fighting knives. The M3 was originally designated for issue to soldiers not otherwise equipped with a bayonet. So, as stated earlier, the archives of Marble or the DoD may reveal conclusively if the reason for the holes in the handguard. Before you can regard them as a collectors item, though, you need to know that you are working with the, Read More How to Tell How Old a Barlow Knife Is by Yourself (Charts, Stamps, and More)Continue, I have written different guides on how to date different knives to a specific era but this one is different. Thick blade and two piece rivets were replaced with a thinner Curiously enough, my knife does not have the Camillus trademark name stamp anywhere on the knife or the sheath. 5665: Early 12/29/1939 prototype of the new Camillus design What are the unique features of the Air Force Survival Knife, as outlined in the U.S. Government specifications? Beyond that I do not know if they were swapped out. together at the same time. Surplus stores will purchase them in bulk through U.S. Government auctions, collectors will buy them at auctions, military museums will display them, and they will continue to be available for purchase on the internet. I sent some pictures I have of mine, Major. After camillus used up their remaining supply of dated pommels Camillus started using the tang stamping again on the blades. In June of '60, the contract was changed to requiring a peened pommel (as was used on all later production). That is surely a lot of information to keep track of. Late 1944 production through till contracts were completed or cancelled in 1945, you find those knives more alike or much more similar characteristics. While some are very rare, such as the L-76, L-77, "Bushman" and USMC parachutist knives, several examples are more ubiquitous. Thanks for your work. Before you go dating your ka-bar knife, I think you might want to know some of the challenges that you could encounter, and why. The genesis of the Air Force Survival Knife goes back to the 1950s at the dawn of the jet age. business. Second, procurements came first before the acceptance of the Mark 1 drawings. Possibly, some may have had one issued to them while serving in the military. I've heard arguments on both sides, but as of yet I'd be uncomfortable moving the positions beyond the level of opinion. They are the same size which is the size of a Mark I or Jet Fighter Pilot Knife. Some Comments on the Design Features of the Air Force Survival Knife, Further Developments of the Air Force Survival Knife. I had the Colonial and Geneva knives flipped the wrong way, You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. In 1962, the knife was modified by reducing the blade to 5" in length. It is well preserved and stored away since my discharge in 1966. The design was not adopted. I may be wrong but it may have been produced between 1970-1990, maybe in Asia. I have the knife and sheath, but not the sharpener. In most of the places that Ive come across a Klein knife, it was either a military electricians knife or for another handyman. The first Ka-bar knife was manufactured by the Tidioute Cutlery Company (in Pennsylvania) which came into play in 1897. That sold this great knife with blade, hilt and butt blued. Pilot Survival Knife MIL-K-8662(AER). They got into every kind of game and having different manufacturers along the line meant that they all didnt have to stick to the same design philosophy. The bit telltale difference is the sharpened false edge. for great photos and full text on telling them
In New York City. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Regards, Ive read reviews that claim the new ones (from Ontario) are not as good. Q30: WW II Prototype made for the 6 inch Hunting knife The post-1962 knives were produced by the Camillus Cutlery Company and Milpar during the Vietnam Era. If it comes with a sheath, there wont be a factory embossed stamp on it. In 1961, updates to the military specifications called for a 5-inch blade. I find no marks on it but it was well used with rust stains. With the help What is interesting is the knife is called an Air force pilot survival knife. But there are clever reproductions that can fool you into thinking its the real thing. It has two blades; one is a standard 2.5-inch cutting blade and the other is a locking. I, too, have one that has a small Japan stamped on the blade at the hilt. Hoping to try and date them but I am finding conflicting information. This design was accepted, and the military specifications documents were updated to reflect Marbles concept in MIL-K-8662A (04 November 1957). 1 2 3 Items 1 - 12 of 27 Show per page Sort By Camillus Bombat 6" Pocket Knife #19484 $17.99 room when the company was auctioned off. The blade is very sharp but has surface deterioration and the guard seems rather dull. Your email address will not be published. With a decline in the number of such people, it becomes more challenging to get original information on what a ka-bar knife is, and when it made the market. Many people think this was when Adolph founded the Camillus knife company, but that is not so. If you happen to have, Read More How to Date A Case Kodiak Knife by Yourself (Expert Advice)Continue, Klein knives are clear vintages, and theyre one of those knives that went to the war. The condition of the leather sheath is what would one would expect to be from late 1960s to early 1970s vintage as it was found at the time, which has not degraded since. These knives became popular with outdoorsman. I attach a photo of the peened pommel that makes this 6" a 1960 model: Hi. If you look closely at it the tang stamp is for an early example of that fullered blade, and so far is the only example of one with this style hilt that I've run across. If you dont find your stamp and logo from there, use the official stamp/ logo guide from the official Ka-bar website as seen below: There is a lot that you can tell about the Ka-bar knife from the markings on the blade. I suspect it is Vietnam era from its condition. Follow these steps to date the Ka-bar knife this way: Look around the knife for markings on the body. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. Glen, I have a Camillus USA 5 fixed blade knife that was issued to me between 1964-1965 as a flight crew member in Patrol Squadron 8, VP-8 Anti submarine warfare squadron. We made no attempt to do any cleaning in case the knife is old. This is when Camillus re-designed their screw top pommel. Meet The Camillus Pro Staff Survivalists, Hunters, Military and more Camillus Design Partners Knives, machetes and tools designed by the best in the business Social Photos #camillus Acme United Corporation 1 Waterview Drive, Suite 200, Shelton, CT 06484 head pommel. unknown variant like the Marbles above. Relevant!! View all posts by Major Hykr. It is the SP 2, Survival Knife. I have 2 Camillus Knives that are similar but different. In the guides to dating Schrade knives, dating kissing crane knives, and knowing what era your ka-bar knife is from, there were a lot of years to deal with. Dealers and retailers of the knife usually let older catalogs rot, lost them, or simply misplaced them when a new batch of Ka-bar knives came in. Thank you for the history. Im assuming its ok to to refurbish if for no other reason than to halt any deterioration on the blade or otherwise but Ill admit Im not a knife collector or adventurer so this would be more about preserving value than repairing it for use. by MITCH RAPP Mon May 27, 2013 5:42 pm, Post Phillip; St Louis with Indian Trail grooved bone and large rivets. I have not Thanks for the feedback. You mentioned the Ontario KNife Company briefly in the article. After vetting the information against the published government standards for this knife and the government procurement process, what emerged was a unique story of an iconic knife that has found its way from the military to the civilian outdoor world and into the hearts of many owners and users. Fortunately for us, Camillus changed their stamps enough to map each one to different periods. As a further development on the Air Force Survival Knife, the Ontario Knife Company offers a second-generation civilian version of the knife in its Special Purpose SP series of knives. Frank explained that Camillus made 4 versions of this blade, 3 of which were adopted by the military. I have one but cant find anything about it. I believe the two holes in the blade guard was to dummy cord the knife. It has a decent leather scabbard with no hole in the tip and leather cords intact, as well as the stone with similar markings as others Ive seen. Thanks for your help. J63: Army Parachutist Knife. Over the decades, this document has been updated. If you happen to have, Read More How to Date A Case Kodiak Knife by Yourself (Expert Advice)Continue, If you have spent some time here before, then we have dated some pretty amazing knives together. The handle should fold out to cover the entire blade edge. blade with S numbers. The tang stamp shown here is known as Camillus' four line stamp. by jerryd6818 Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:06 am, Return to Camillus Cutlery Collector's Forum, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. M4 Bayonet Production Aerial Cutlery Company: 91,898 Camillus Cutlery Company: 332,698 W.R. Case & Sons Cutlery Co.: 224,764 Imperial Knife Company: 917,894 Kinfolks, Inc: 119,702 Pal Blade Company: 268,000 Utica Cutlery Company: 515,000 The good news is that I found multiple ways to determine how old your Camillus knife is. The one on the left there is a bevel at the top of the grip. . Heres a link to Frank Trzaska's Note on the subject. Thanks! Heavily used Camillus hunter, possible returned to the #3 Speak with Knife Collectors and Dealers. Leather washers handle with a heavy round pommel and slightly curved guard; all parts are perfectly tight with no play. This is the early AAC Today, we keep finding fewer and fewer people who fought in WWII around. Camillus Cuda Bolt Spring Assisted Knife Gray (3.625" Black) CM19080 MSRP: $50.99 Our Price: $43.95 Add to Cart Camillus Erupt Spring Assisted Knife Black GRN (2.5" Black) Our Price: $33.95 Add to Cart Camillus HEAT Spring Assisted Knife Black GFN (3.5" Black) CM19167 Our Price: $55.95 Add to Cart 1937. with their design. by Colonel666 Sun May 26, 2013 1:43 am, Post While some other companies have taken over the design and started to make modern versions, there is simply nothing like the older units that first came out under the original Klaas company. Did you recently find a Camillus knife, and youd like to know what era it came from? I'll leave it at this, there is some conjecture out there on what these knives might or might not be. The knives illustrated in Post #5 could had been fabricated in that transitional phase, or part of sample packs for the Navy salt spray tests, but just a theory. US MILITARIA FORUM - COLLECTORS PRESERVING HISTORY They all now have similar appearances, a conformity if you will. I was wondering if you had run across anything about the dates on the pommel nut. The fun thing is that you also date the scabbards. The picture I posted is of a knife I had bid on in an auction, but did not win. S-5382 Half guard prototype with scaler back and 3 small 3-line; non-italic fonts; short underline, 3-line; non-italic, full underline; no dots (USA., not U.S.A.), 3-line stamp; full underline; dotted U.S.A.; italics. RdksTreasures. Those who do not currently own one should purchase one. Did your Camillus knife go to the war? Also it is not cut to put on a belt. Great knife for camping or scouting I carried mine on walks in the woods. Additionally, synthetic composite materials like Kevlar had not been fully integrated into aircraft construction until the late 1970s and 1980s. It looks exactly like the survival knife from the air force. 76, #4). After the completion of testing and bidding competition between Marble, Camillus Cutlery, and the Ontario Knife Company (OKC), Camillus was awarded the contract to supply the new Jet Pilot Survival Knife (JPSK) to the Department of Defense instead of Marble. So both of mine in the first post are wartime? The Air Force Survival Knife was designed to meet a particular requirement for the military. Show me your knife, and I'll tell you who you are. For all that good, though, some bad actors have learned how to make fake Camillus knives and pass them off as vintage. The sharpening stone shall be fabricated from silicon carbide, grain size 280, hardness P, vitrified bond. I have no idea how long it had been sitting there. Only the same "Camillus N.Y." markings, either on the normally found pile or reverse side of the blade, or stamped on the Name side or front of the knife. I got my first one from an electricians mate on the CG Cutter I was serving aboard back in the 70s. If I am honest, theyre not the only ones to make this mistake. It was used to open C-rations, cutting vines, skinning game and fish. Required fields are marked *. Just looks cute. I also personally packed these knives up In all other ways, it totally resembles the pilots survival knife distributed to the military in the 1950s. For the next 27 years it was in my Squad car or on my SWAT belt. Below are some timelines for you to explore:Tang StampStamp DesignExtra MarkingsDateUnion Cutlery Co., Tidioute, Pa;Union Cut. These fakes are even made with materials that age fast, tricking you into thinking that the knife has indeed seen a lot of years. Never knew that opinions could be this varied. With areas like Germany, Italy, China, and the rest of the world getting the praises for coming up with truly timeless knives, the USA takes the glory for this one. So, whats unique about the history of the Camillus knives? joined the originals, now we have all that were present at the time of the The business was run by a handful of businessmen who, for one reason or the other, went out of business by 1900. selected. USMC next to the current repro which graphically shows the difference. The tang stamp on this knife is post Government contract era. Note the scabbards with and without sheet
At the end of the war, the decision to ramp up capacity paid off as Camillus could now make its knives and still churn others out under contract. Knife collectors and dealers should still have those catalogs if you can find them. Maybe a high school classmate possibly but I dont know. Now, we know already that this, Read More How to Tell If A 1918 Trench Knife Is Real (5+ Unique Methods)Continue, The kissing crane knives are some of the most well-made, long-lasting, and historical knives that we can still find around today. After more than two decades (1897) in this business, importation costs for the knives were getting higher and wiping out Adolphs profits. It is also suspected that knife makers will begin to find ways to improve the knife and manufacture their versions of the knife similar to what knife companies are doing with other legacy knife designs. It doesn't sit flush my guess is it was replaced. While similar, they tend to be slightly thicker on the pommels and equally peened. Even if the Ontario Knife Company discontinues their production and the DoD phases them out of their inventories, the knife will be around for commercial purchase. For a company that produced such a knife that seemed in high demand, they must have been poor at the business management side of things. Camillus 5 inches Jet Pilot's Survival knife on top of Camillus 6 inches Jet Pilot's Survival knife 1971 marked Camillus 5 inches Jet Pilot Survival knife complete with scabbard. Now that you have established the ka-bar knife and got the markings to know what kind of issue it is, how about knowing if it is a WW2 knife or not? He believes these were ordered in 04/05/44. The one on the right pommel nut and screw are brass. Any opinions? Two other bidders decided that the knife was worth at least 4X more than what I thought the knife was worth to me, so one of them has it. This does not impact the price of the item youre buying and it supports me to keep creating the content that you love. Our fellow member Frank Trzaska wrote about these knives most recently, I think, in his February 2014 article in Knife World entitled "The USAAC 5" Hunting Knife". When you have a knife that meets the specs above, it could only have been made in 1944 or 1945. 5684 S50: Dated 8/21/1945 this design uses the Mark 2 blade, the Army needed one as well to replace the M2 pocket knife. the M3 and the M4 reproductions. hunting knife. The serrated spine was designed to cut through the aluminum skin surrounding the airframes of Korean and Vietnam War-era aircraft. They did not adopt this knife, as we know the M3 was More formal details weren't adopted until the close of 1943, this leaves at least 6 months of production and ordering of materials from contractors. For Sale: Custom & Semi Production Knives (Dealer), KnifeMaker's Market: Knives & More for Sale, Wanted: Knifemaker / Craftsman / Related Services, Busse / Swamprat / Scrapyard Knives For Sale, For Sale: Traditionals, Slipjoints, "Old Timey", International (Non-US) For Sale & Trade Forums, http://http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/memiller6589/media/image.jpg1_zpsny0xql9n.jpg.html, http://http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/memiller6589/media/image.jpg3_zpsqqhxmzdp.jpg.html, http://http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/memiller6589/media/image.jpg4_zps8sys767a.jpg.html, http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/memiller6589/media/image.jpg2_zpsgpr5rjhm.jpg.html, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sAF-survival-knife-photo-thread?highlight=USAF, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s-date-or-pattern-or-serial?highlight=survival, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sillus-pilot-survivor-knife?highlight=survival, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/695-Camillus-Collector-s-Forum. Camillus Factory still shot courtesy of Tom Williams showing
Finally Ive found something which helped me. The Camillus Cutlery company also produced: Their production capacity was expanded during the second world war when they had to manufacture a lot of high-quality knives to meet the needs of the soldiers shipping off to war. The new design that was adopted was the 6 inch JPK. the font is a bit off but hard to tell apart if you do not have the two
Dated 1/25/1943 on the order. Another Kent with stagged Rosewood, brass pins and etched. To re-arrange a genuine item like this would be quite a task. I own one of these knives and recently became interested in its history when one was found in a japanese built WWII tunnel system in a mountain in Northern Luzon, Philippines. Both have leather grips. Hi Wilfredo, My mother believes my father only used it as a scout leader in the late 60s to early 70s and it has been in a drawer ever since. Camillus 1996 Combination Folding Knife USN $24.99 1 bid $5.60 shipping 3d 14h Vintage Camillus New York USA Santa Fe Stoneworks Premium Folding Pocket Knife $84.99 Was: $99.99 or Best Offer SPONSORED Vintage 4 Blade CAMILLUS 1981 USA Military Survival Pocket Knife - SKU 1617 5684 L77A: Camillus tried to talk Naval Ordnance into using Sign up for a new account in our community. Camillus wanted to send the knife with a hack saw blade attached to [emailprotected], Thanks for letting me know that, Murphy. Another part of the group has After the war, Camillus soon shifted back to civilian cutlery, but they were now facing stiff competition from overseas companies. Enjoy! The table below shows you different tang stamp designs and when they were circulated.Tang StampDescriptionYear/ Era3-line arch stamp1902-19154-line straight stamp with yearFeatures year of manufacture3-line straight stamp1916 the 1930s4-line straight stampThe 1930s mid-19453-line; non-italic fonts; short underline1946 19503-line; non-italic, full underline; no dots (USA., not U.S.A.)1960 the 1970s3-line stamp; full underline; dotted U.S.A.; italicsThe 1970s 1980s3-line stamp; dotted U.S.A.; mixed caps1989 2007Camillus Knife Tang Stamps and their Eras. The original design of this 5" blade is, I believe, a pre-war Marbles design which was known as the "Ideal", a #45. Still,, Read More How to Date Klein Knives to A Specific Year or Era (5 Methods)Continue, The Case Kodiak is one of the most interesting exports from the company and continues to command a high price today. In fact, I believe that learning how to date a ka-bar knife requires more attention to detail and a couple of more moving parts than when we were dealing with the Kissing Crane knives. Otherwise, it would be much easier to go through their files to find out which Ka-bar knives were made when. As late as the 80s and 90s, Japanese made copies of the MK2 KABAR and the Air Force Survival Knife were sold in exchanges around the globe. Examine your knife pocket identifying mark on one of the blades. The large guard is nickel Camillus was on contract to make Buck knives from 1968 after Schrade stopped making them. Orig. All About Pocket Knives is a knife related resource center for buying, selling, researching, and discussing all things knives, Post Interesting article. Saunders knives; and a few more knives under contract. Thanks. S-3647 A prototype that was to have a 10 MM screw compass I used it for Scouting till 1968. What is the white dot on the handle? Sears Roebucks in 9/26/1941. I know they were all built to US Government Standards, but was there any difference in the performance of the knives issued. Like every other knife Ive dated, the Camillus knives are challenging in their way. The rarest USMC knife in with the government to sell the design and know how to make the knife. The condition of the knife is worn, but otherwise good. Adolph Kastor, the founder of the Camillus cutlery company, came to the U.S.A at the age of 14. That said, I did cut down a Christmas tree (about 3-4 inches in diameter once). Some had been made before the time, and they dont have the exact specs as above. Dated 10/30/1941. Most of the information that I have collected about the knife comes from blogs and knife forums on the internet. Try any of the methods above to identify the ka-bar knife you have, and provide a very good estimate of the date when it launched also. Made after march 1985 to 2006. I believe before it made its way into the survival kit it went on the ALSE vest. Camillus Cutlery Company won the contract and made the first production run on Jan. 27, 1943. I dont believe they were pinned in that era. Made in September 1941. No matter the reason for wanting to date that blade, these methods will get you an accurate year or an era, at worst. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. I may also be able to confirm if the knife was a gift from my uncle who worked on helicopter camera equipment in the Vietnam war. Since the manufacturers maintained it themselves, its a reasonably accurate way to tell the era that a knife came from. However, based on the information that I have collected, vetted, and coupled with my own experience with the DoD procurement and testing process, here is the basic history of this knife. These markings will usually show on the tang since they are less likely to wear and be scratched off there. The one on the left is a 1972 and the one on the right has no date. the markings are all the same and in the same place as the originals. the M3 pommel and guard to improve their knife and help conserve parts. Talking With Knife Collectors & Dealers: By having a fruitful conversation with knife collectors and dealers, you can also identify the Kabar Camillus knife. My friend and I were just talking about this specific subject, she actually is normally attempting to prove me completely wrong! Some shady knife enthusiasts might want to get the knife from you at a steal price or in a swap deal for something else. Im happy to see that youre entering the world of knife collection. The Air Force Survival Knife was introduced to the commercial market by Marble after not being awarded the DoD contract to supply the new survival knife to the military. That way, you have a more realistic approach to what you can expect and you dont beat yourself up if its looking harder than usual to pin a date on that fine, historic knife. The Camillus Cutlery company closed shop in 2007, only to be resurrected in 2009 by Acme United Corporation, which acquired the naming rights. Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Above we feature the Camillus USMC reproduction. What had occurred was corrosion issues, through the second half of 1943, there was a lot of discussion from the BuOrd and contractors to remediate the issue. If you have a collector around, check with them to see if they had kept such catalogs. The genesis of the Air Force Survival Knife goes back to the 1950s at the dawn of the jet age. The M3 trench knife or M3 fighting knife was an American military combat knife first issued in March 1943. Kent Stagged Rosewood with steel rivets, same as above. One of the tasks that this knife was designed to accomplish was helping pilots and aircrews egress their downed aircraft or to help first responders extract them from their downed aircraft. Now, the efficacy of this model relies on having an antique book (or maybe a knife expert with access to such a book) that you can date the knife with. hunting knives from parts on hand. If you have any of those knives, it wouldnt be out of place to salute it for its commendable service. Thank you, this is a very informative treatise on this knife. Klein knives are clear vintages, and theyre one of those knives that went to the war. It used to be a standard piece of gear for anyone, including backpackers, who was a serious outdoorsman and wilderness adventurers back in the 1970s and 1980s, before the Rambo movies made popular the Rambo-type survival knife. There was a spin off copy cat comp. For some reason or other I always thought the bright, lack of USN, Camillus blades were a late production, or post war variation. "S" Cards and drawings, dates, etc, associated with these knives Eventually the U.S. Navy adopted the knife after failures on the Mark 1 and renamed it the U.S. Navy Mark 2. Camillus produced the Jet Pilot Survival Knife with a 5-inch blade from 1961-2006. But this is Ontario. Thus, finding ways of reducing the bulk of the Aviation Life Support Equipment (ALSE) assisted in the overall weight considerations for flying. It doesn't get much better then this one. Many thanks! Ka-bar knives are not made like they used to be anymore. 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